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Rules Questions Thread 2.0
8/11/2008 11:56:19 PM

rain

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Well it seems that the rules thread pulled a vanishing act on us, so in its honor: Rules question thread 2.0 Ask away


Alright, nearly 2 pages of questions on progenetius in the rules thread has spurred me to post this. I ask grimmer and everyone else not to answer any more questions about protection from everything.


Here are the 4 things you need to know about protection from everything.

1) Progenetius cannot be targeted by spells or abilities. That means if the spell says TARGET creature or permenant it can't choose progenetius. If it never mentions target creature or permenant your golden (re: wrath of god kills him)

2) Progenetius is unblockable. Period.

3) All damage to progenetius is prevented. If you pyroclasm for example, you do not pass go, you do not collect 200 dollars and you do not deal 2 points of damage to progenetius.

4) Progeneius cannot be equipped or enchanted. If you have some way to move an enchantment or equipment to progenetius without targeting him you can but it will fall off as a state based effect. An enchanment would go to the yard and an equipment would just sit there and laugh at you for being an idiot.


Thats it, unless you have a specific question about the way protection from everything interacts in unique situations STOP ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT HIM.


For the love of god, someone sticky this, if I see one more question about protection from everything Im going to off myself. Comment on my Mono B rogues and my G/B combo decks please ;D

10/5/2008 1:59:00 PM

CW

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okay, so the stack looks like this:

eye for an eye
simulacrum
damage

a) Eye for an Eye resolves, but you haven't been dealt damage yet.
b) Simulacrum resolves and damage dealt to you is instead dealt to Stuffy Doll
c) Damage resolves and is redirected to stuffy doll, you gain the life

You have to play Eye for an Eye AFTER you are dealt damage. Don't forget that damage goes on the stack as well. I'm a single cell on a serpent's tongue.

10/5/2008 2:03:00 PM

CW

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If I Fork a Fork that is targeting a Twincast that is copying a Wild Richochet that is targeting an Ancestral Recall, how many cards do I draw? Seriously...brain teaser
I'm a single cell on a serpent's tongue.

10/6/2008 1:35:00 AM

Grimmer

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Anywhere from 21-27 assuming you target yourself with the Ancestral Visions and depending on what you eventually copy with the Forks (after you tire of copying a Fork, which is a waste of time) I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

10/16/2008 5:35:00 PM

Dennis

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If I Torrent of Souls (with both black and red mana) a creature in the graveyard that generates tokens (say Siege-Gang Commander), do the tokens get the +2/+0 and haste?

Edit: Nevermind. Just the original gets the bonus and haste.

10/19/2008 4:58:00 PM

Test Rhun

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bump.... If I Flickerwisp a Planeswalker does it return to it's starting loyalty? or phase it out, then in? Or any other way to remove it and return it to play? If so, what are some good cards to do this? I got this idea b/c someone O-ringed Chandra Nalaar and cost them some fatties. Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}

10/19/2008 5:18:00 PM

Vincent Mahoney

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Flickerwisp or anything that blatantly states, "Remove target permanent from the game. Return it to..." will return it with starting loyalty counters. The same holds true for any counters on any permanent; the returned to play permanent is treated as an entirely new instance.

Phasing? Not so much. The rules on that changed, and I do believe that phased out is considered to be it's own zone, or something. Grimmer could probably clear that up more. I'm not the most intelligent person on this site, but I'll sure as hell speak as if I am.

10/19/2008 5:54:00 PM

The Artificer

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You have to just remember that when a card changes zones, it has no memory of its past activities. This means that when a plansewalker (or anything else) Iis flickered, it loses its memory.

Phasing simply states "phase out" and "phased in." When a permanent is phased out it is placed in the "phased out" zone. As an exception to the rule of cards losing their memory, cards to not forget their previous state after being phased. However, phasing in does not count as "comes into play." Effects that would be triggered when it comes into play are ignored.

I do not believe it is possible to phase a planeswalker at the time, but Teferi's Realm will do just about everything else.

Source: magicthegathering.com comprehensive rules. ~Latest deck project: Memories of Blood. Any help would be appreciated.~ "Misery loves company. Idiocy loves attention."

10/21/2008 7:57:00 AM

Test Rhun

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If I twincast a counter spell, can I use that counter spell to counter my twincast? Just a four manna question. Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}

10/21/2008 8:20:00 AM

Grimmer

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Yes, that is possible. The Twincast is still on the stack when the copy is made and the new targets are chosen, so you can target the Twincast, which will then be removed from the stack since it is finished resolving. The copy would then be countered upon resolution due to having an illegal target.

This is more useful with something that simply changes the target of a spell, since you could change the target to the spell that is resolving and effectively counter your opponent's spell due to having an illegal target. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

10/22/2008 6:29:00 AM

Mr. Safety

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Question on Jace Beleren:

His first ability reads +2, each player draws a card. How does this work? Does this mean I have to wait a turn to use this ability?

If my opponent attacks Jace for 3 and Jace now only has 1 loyalty counter, can I still use the +2 ability even though the number won't be 5? Mystical Tutor>>>>>Tinker>>>>>Darksteel Colossus>>>>>profit... (8*P

10/22/2008 9:15:00 AM

Grimmer

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>>>His first ability reads +2, each player draws a card. How does this work? Does this mean I have to wait a turn to use this ability?

You can use a Planeswalker once per turn during your main phase when the stack is empty. There is no requirement to wait a turn to use the abilities, so the turn you play it you can use it.

>>>If my opponent attacks Jace for 3 and Jace now only has 1 loyalty counter, can I still use the +2 ability even though the number won't be 5?

You may use the +2 ability any time during your main phase when the stack is empty, provided you haven't used any abilities of that Planeswalker yet this turn. The number of counters it will end up with is not relevant, nor is whether it has been dealt damage on the opponent's turn. If your Planeswalker had an ability that was -2 to activate and it only had 1 counter, then you would not be able to use that ability. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

10/22/2008 2:37:00 PM

Mr. Safety

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So I play Jace, add a counter, next turn, add a counter and THEN each player draws a card? Mystical Tutor>>>>>Tinker>>>>>Darksteel Colossus>>>>>profit... (8*P

10/22/2008 2:52:00 PM

Grimmer

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No. You play Jace (3 counters) and choose to use the first ability (+2:Each player draws a card.) As the cost to play the activated ability, you add 2 counters (5 counters). When the activated ability resolves, you each draw a card.

You don't add/subtract 1 counter per turn (necessarily). You add/subtract a number of counters = the cost to play the ability (specified on the card). I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

10/23/2008 1:20:00 PM

Mr. Safety

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Wow, Jace is better than I thought...

Thanks Grimmer! Mystical Tutor>>>>>Tinker>>>>>Darksteel Colossus>>>>>profit... (8*P

10/24/2008 4:03:00 AM

Test Rhun

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end of turn question, a judge, who has been wrong before, said I couldn't trigger flicker wisp on flicker wisp, for an infinite combo, making soul warden give me infinite life, but as I said, he has been wrong before, so does this work or not? Flicker wisp the flicker wisp, until I'm bored, and then hit something else, and end turn. Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}

10/24/2008 4:06:00 AM

Test Rhun

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nvm, the gather screws me again, but this could be a nice little trick :
* 8/1/2008 The removed card will return to play at end of turn even if Flickerwisp is no longer in play.
* 8/1/2008 If a Flickerwisp you play removes another Flickerwisp from the game, the second Flickerwisp will return to play at end of turn. Its ability will trigger and remove another target permanent from the game. That permanent won't return to play until the next turn's end step.

Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}

10/24/2008 12:10:00 PM

Mr. Safety

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Thought Prison:

It says that if the player plays a card with the same converted cost or same color as the removed card, it deals 2 damage.

If the card played matches both criteria, do they take 4 damage? Mystical Tutor>>>>>Tinker>>>>>Darksteel Colossus>>>>>profit... (8*P

10/24/2008 12:21:00 PM

EllE

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Nope, Thought Prison triggers only once(since its a triggered ability...) Moo.

10/24/2008 11:02:00 PM

Vincent Mahoney

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I just need a brief reminder of a rule.

If a spell that has two abilities (such as Hindering Light) loses it's target (IE, the spell on the stack that HL was targetting was countered, for some reason or another), do you still get to draw a card?

I think the last I heard on this was for modal spells, like Cryptic Command, but I can't remember. I'm pretty sure that for a modal spell like CC, even if it's target is gone for one effect you still follow through with the other.

Anyway, any clarification on this would be appreciated. I'm not the most intelligent person on this site, but I'll sure as hell speak as if I am.

10/25/2008 2:59:00 AM

EllE

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If a spell loses it's only target before it resolves, it is entirely countered upon resolution. So, in the case of hindering light, you would not draw a card.

If a spell has several targets, and not all of them gets removed, it will still affect the remaining, and do other stuff.

Note that only 2 of CC's modes target; the bounce part and the counter part.
For example, if bounce and draw a card is chosen, and the permanent is gone, CC's controller doesn't get to draw a card. Same goes for target + tap all.
If tapping all creatures and draw a card is chosen, CC can only be countered by a direct counter(lul wut) not be lack of targets. Moo.

10/25/2008 8:26:00 AM

Test Rhun

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"If a spell loses it's only target before it resolves, it is entirely countered upon resolution. So, in the case of hindering light, you would not draw a card."
The key term her is only target.
both effects go on the stack, hindering light has two, you (which = legal target) draw a card and counter a spell(our magically disappearing target), but I don't see how it would loose its target, when Hindering light resolves the counter spell fizzles, and you still draw a card, it is like searching your deck for something, and it not being there(our magically disappearing target), you still finish the spells other effect, which generally is shuffle you deck (legal target). If this was not true, you would be able to use search cards to legally stack your deck (no legal target countered upon resolution). You should also note you can choose to fail to find something even if it is in your deck, and still complete the rest of the spell, don't see a use for this yet, but I am looking for one, other than to randomly use the heralds ability to sack off your creatures to trigger effects per-say in a persist deck. Now if the spell said counter target spell and return it to it's controllers hand, if that spell ceases to exist to be countered, then the second effect doesn't work either, but it had 2 effects and only one target. I guess what Elle missed here was the absolute value of NO (computers run off of this logic and, or, nand, nore, and no). If one legal target still exist upon resolution then the other effects only fizzle, the rest of the spell still triggers. Same goes for Cryptic Command. Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}

10/25/2008 9:13:00 AM

EllE

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I'm quite sure I didn't miss anything, but I think you misunderstood quite alot, not of my sentence, but rules in general
Hindering Lights two things is the same thing on the stack, and "draw a card" doesn't target(note that there is any TARGET in "draw a card").
Which means that if the spell HL is trying to counter is countered by something else, it loses it's only target, and is entirely countered upon resolution.

Here's a example, taken from the questions database on SCG:
"Q: I have a question concerning Cryptic Command or any of the other "choose two" spells from Lorwyn. I play Cryptic Command, choosing to return a target permanent to hand and draw a card. But then the one target disappears. Is the Command countered because all targets are gone, like a normal spell with one target, or do I still draw a card, because its a special spell with two modes?

A: The fact that the Commands are modal spells where you choose two modes does not matter. This spell only had one target; that target is not legal when the spell tries to resolve, so the entire spell is countered on resolution. So no, you will not draw a card." Moo.

10/25/2008 12:58:00 PM

Vincent Mahoney

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Hey, thanks, EIIE. Which, is that E-eye-eye-E, or E-L-L-E?

>_>; That's beside the point, however. I'm not the most intelligent person on this site, but I'll sure as hell speak as if I am.

10/26/2008 3:14:00 AM

EllE

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Nah, not at all =D Its the second; the first would be the squeaking of some rodent :/ Moo.

10/26/2008 8:17:00 AM

Test Rhun

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quick one, can "Rings of Brighthearth" be used to copy the same activated ability multiple times, if the activated ability is only used once? Epic Fail...{Project deck: The Electric Slide}
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