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Rules Questions Thread 2.0
8/11/2008 11:56:19 PM

rain

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Well it seems that the rules thread pulled a vanishing act on us, so in its honor: Rules question thread 2.0 Ask away


Alright, nearly 2 pages of questions on progenetius in the rules thread has spurred me to post this. I ask grimmer and everyone else not to answer any more questions about protection from everything.


Here are the 4 things you need to know about protection from everything.

1) Progenetius cannot be targeted by spells or abilities. That means if the spell says TARGET creature or permenant it can't choose progenetius. If it never mentions target creature or permenant your golden (re: wrath of god kills him)

2) Progenetius is unblockable. Period.

3) All damage to progenetius is prevented. If you pyroclasm for example, you do not pass go, you do not collect 200 dollars and you do not deal 2 points of damage to progenetius.

4) Progeneius cannot be equipped or enchanted. If you have some way to move an enchantment or equipment to progenetius without targeting him you can but it will fall off as a state based effect. An enchanment would go to the yard and an equipment would just sit there and laugh at you for being an idiot.


Thats it, unless you have a specific question about the way protection from everything interacts in unique situations STOP ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT HIM.


For the love of god, someone sticky this, if I see one more question about protection from everything Im going to off myself. Comment on my Mono B rogues and my G/B combo decks please ;D

1/26/2009 8:03:00 PM

i'm poor

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Question regarding Demigod of revenge. I know its "as you play" ability triggers regardless if the demigod actually resolves or not. Now at Fnm I hear a lot of people waiting for the "as you play" trigger to resolve before countering the demigod. My question is as the player with priority casting demigod of revenge, and the "as you play" effect and the creature going on the stack @ the same time, don't you choose the order of the stack? Basically can you cast Demigod, and order the stack so that the triggered ability stacks first, therefore resolves last?

1/26/2009 9:13:00 PM

Shad Mckinley

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Questions > Im using quicksilver amulet and i play

Denzien of the deep
Wormafang manta or, grozoth

do their effects take place?

If i use it to bring in myojins do they come with a div counter on them?

If i use Vodalian Illusionist's when does phased creature phase back in?

Retired from site. Tired of trolls who rate you poorly just to get you off some worthless list. Gl to all the other people i met who were cool.

1/26/2009 9:17:00 PM

DonQuixote

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You wait for the ability to go onto the stack, and then wait for the ability to RESOLVE and bring them back, then before the Demigod resolves, you counter the Demigod. Since it has not been countered and gone to the graveyard yet, it wont be brought back. Fortune favors the prepared mind

1/26/2009 9:41:00 PM

Grimmer

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>>>Question > Im using quicksilver amulet and i play

Clarification - Quicksilver Amulet puts the creature into play. You are not playing the creature.

>>>Denzien of the deep, Wormafang manta or, grozoth... do their effects take place?

Yes, these coming into play triggers will trigger if you put the creature into play via Quicksilver Amulet.

>>>If i use it to bring in myojins do they come with a div counter on them?

No. Myojins only get their divinity counter if they were played from your hand. Playing a spell goes thru the steps defined in the rules as "playing a spell" (i.e. going to the stack, etc.). Basically, putting into play is not playing the spell. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/27/2009 4:58:00 AM

coat

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let's say i have a krosan cloudscraper, endless whisper and zombie infestation in play. i don't pay the upkeep for the cloudscraper, so it dies. then i stitch together it back to my hand only to discard it (and another card) to zombie infestation. Does the cloudscraper still go to my opponint?

also

same situation, but this time i play a lifeline and orrochi leafcaller (cause i need a creature in play for lifeline to work) instead of stitch together. do i get to choose weather lifeline or endless whispers happens first? meh, it happens

1/27/2009 9:26:00 AM

EllE

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1: No, since it is a different Cloudscraper in the graveyard. This one hasn't been in play.

2: Yes, for creatures you control.
(Creatures your opponent control will always return on thier own control, if they go to the graveyard during your opponent's turn. If they go to graveyard during your turn, they will end up under your control.
Reason is that the active player(the player whose turn it is) puts his/hers triggers on the stack first, in whatever order he/she chooses. Then the non-active player does the same. Since abilities put on the stack first resolves last, the non-active players triggers resolves first.
So, your opponents creature die during his turn: First, Endless Whispers' ability goes on the stack, then Lifeline. If there is a creature in play, Lifeline brings it back first, thus EW has nothing to return.
During your turn, his creature dies. Your Lifeline is put on first, the EW is put on, and EW resolves first, you get his creature.)
This is irrelevant for creatures you control, sicne you control both Lifeline, and the creature that EW gives the ability(controlling EW has nothing to do with the controller of the ability on the creature) Moo.

1/27/2009 9:27:00 AM

Grimmer

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>>>Does the cloudscraper still go to my opponent?

No. When you return it to your hand, the game loses track of it and will consider it a different creature card than the one it was supposed to put into play under the target opponent's control.

>>>do i get to choose weather lifeline or endless whispers happens first?

Since you control the Lifeline and the creature that has the Endless Whispers granted ability (Cloudscraper), you choose which to put on the stack first. You would put the Whispers trigger on first and then the Lifeline trigger. The Lifeline trigger would resolve first and put the Cloudscraper into play under your control. The Whispers trigger would not find the creature to return, so it wouldn't do anything. Of course, if you use Stitch together, neither the Lifeline or Whispers will find the creature.

Additional info:
In the Lifeline + Whispers scenario, if the opponent's creature goes to the graveyard with another creature in play and you control the Lifeline, it will depend on who the active player is (i.e. who's turn it is). Triggered abilities are put on the stack in Active Player/Non-Active Player order (APNAP).
- On your turn, Lifeline would go on the stack first and then the Whispers trigger. This would mean the Whispers would resolve first and you would get the creature.
- On their turn, Whispers would go on the stack first and then the Lifeline trigger. This would mean the Lifeline would resolve first and they would get the creature back. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/27/2009 9:29:00 AM

Grimmer

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[edit]Removed accidental double post[/edit]

Dangit! Out-typed by 1 minute. I blame the phone call. :) I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/27/2009 9:37:00 AM

EllE

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Haha :D Well, we both said the same(and alot) Moo.

1/27/2009 5:36:00 PM

Vincent V

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"Question regarding Demigod of revenge. I know its "as you play" ability triggers regardless if the demigod actually resolves or not. Now at Fnm I hear a lot of people waiting for the "as you play" trigger to resolve before countering the demigod. My question is as the player with priority casting demigod of revenge, and the "as you play" effect and the creature going on the stack @ the same time, don't you choose the order of the stack? Basically can you cast Demigod, and order the stack so that the triggered ability stacks first, therefore resolves last? "

No because they don't go on the stack at the same time.The ability trigger when you play the demigod but can't be put on the stack until a player would recieve priority. By that time, the demigod is already on the stack and the triggered ability is placed on top of it.

1/27/2009 9:00:00 PM

B Havas

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Do having multiple vigors out stack, thus you get 2 counters for each point of damage your creature takes with 2 on table?

@im poor > how you afford demigods hehe, im not even will to drop that much on 4 of them. You get what you give, especially with me. Trolls beware i will return equal rates i see you trolling other people with. If you fix the troll rate you gave, list persons name on my deck and i will fix yours as well.

1/27/2009 9:52:00 PM

Grimmer

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>>>Do having multiple vigors out stack, thus you get 2 counters for each point of damage your creature takes with 2 on table?

No, two Vigors will not do anything more than what one Vigor does. Both have a replacement ability (damage prevention). Once the first is applied and prevents the damage, the second doesn't have any damage to prevent. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/27/2009 11:34:00 PM

wierdsteve-LOMA-Iron Chef-CTV

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ok here is a question, what is the reason that some things are reprinted over and over but some arent. take the case of llanowar elves, it has been reprinted in almost every core set since alpha, yet fyndorn elves does the same thing for the same cost but hasnt been reprinted? or quirion elves hasnt been reprinted though its an awesome common, is there any reason behind this? comment on the deck "New Bant" and i will return the favor Iron Chef Mtg Competitor, come stop by the thread and see what is cooking on the site, lots of fun to be had!----------------------------------------------------- The angle of the dangle decreases with the sag of the bag, and increases in proportion to the heat of the meat compared to the mass of the ass and the beauty of the cutie.

1/28/2009 12:02:00 AM

B Havas

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cool thx grimmer
You get what you give, especially with me. Trolls beware i will return equal rates i see you trolling other people with. If you fix the troll rate you gave, list persons name on my deck and i will fix yours as well.

1/28/2009 8:46:00 AM

Ree_Ree (Beer and Magic)

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This may be a dumb question but I am new to Magic so here it goes.

Lets just say there are two Royal Assassins in play and they both have been in play for over a turn so no summoning sickness. I believe their "tap to destroy target creature" is an activated ablility but do these activated abilities operate off the stack? Example: I tap my Royal to kill the other Royal and my opponent "in response" taps his Royal to kill mine. Does only my Royal die or both?

1/28/2009 9:00:00 AM

EllE

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wierdsteve: Thats just wizards. Somethings get reprinted once from way back, others just don't. As for Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves, I guess they dont want 8 copies of the same card in standard.

Ree Ree:
Yes, all activated/triggered abilites use the stack.
Royal Assasin is a bad example, as it says "Tap: Destroy target tapped creature."
However, lets say your opponent has another creature that is tapped, + his Royal.
You put your Royal's ability on the stack to destroy his other tapped creature, and then your opponent puts his Royal's ability on the stack to destroy your Royal. Then the stack looks like this:
Top:
His Royal ability, targgeting your Royal
Your Royal Ability, targeting his other creature.
Bottom

So, your Royal Assassin dies first, but that doesn't remove his ability on the stack, so his other creature still dies.
(Think of a man throwing a handgrenade. While it is in the air, can you stop its explosion by shooting the man?) Moo.

1/28/2009 9:42:00 AM

Ree_Ree (Beer and Magic)

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Excellent explanation, thanks!

1/28/2009 9:49:00 AM

The Artificer

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@ Weirdsteve: Cards that are reprinted are reprinted for several reasons:

1. If they are in a core set, this card will probably be reprinted because the core sets are designed for beginners. These sets require a consistent collection of cards that are both powerful enough to hold their own against an experienced player as well as maintain the power curve of the set. New players must have access to the older and newer sets of cards, because when one doesn't take into account the entire spectrum of magic, you're in for a beating.

2. A card that is integral to a tournament archetype that will soon rotate out may be reprinted in a recent set. For example, Oblivion Ring was repritned in shards because so many decks use it, it needed to stay in standard longer than Lorwyn.

3. A card is the cornerstone of a colour. For your remark about the Llanowar elves: Every green elf deck runs llanowar elves. By maintaining the availability of this card everyone everywhere is kept happy.

4. Sales. When wizards reprint stuff we REALLY like, we're probably inclined to buy a lot of that set. For example, people in my town bought, like, 4 boxes of shadowmoor while chasing Reflecting Pool.

As for fyndhorn elves, it simply did not make the cut this time around. Although 10th edition was a pretty hefty set, it only has so many slots available for green mana rampers. With Llanowar elves, overgrowth, and rampant growth all available in the set, R&D probably determined (on their own, they ARE growing up, after all XD) that Fyndhorn Elves would have been simply white noise in the already sufficient supply of green mana accelerators. ~Latest deck project: Memories of Blood. Any help would be appreciated.~ "Misery loves company. Idiocy loves attention."

1/28/2009 6:38:00 PM

B Havas

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Few question here. Been out of game a while so my apologies if some sound newbish.

1. Phage vs Platinum angel... Does angel win and keep player alive?

2. Flickering ward... Can i play this on an opponents creature with 2 blue enchantments on it, name blue to destroy them and then buy it back?

3. How does stack order work with tapping. I have an untapped creature like visara, opponent is holding an unmake. If i tap then he unmakes does creature im targeting live? or other way around he plays unmake first can i tap and kill creature.

4. Similarly if i try to enchant a creature and my opponent instant kills it do i lose enchantment i was trying to play too?

5. If i play a spell like minion of the wastes or hatred do i spend life first thus if countered i lose all the life?

6. I use an ability that taps all opponents lands, do they get to interrupt and tap those lands to use them? And whey you take damage from mana burn is it damage or loss of life, ie would having multiple sun droplets allow you to mana burn yourself and gain life in the end?

7. I know some slivers effects stack but do they all. Like essence sliver or the one that gives poison counters?

8. if a creature is removed with o-ring does it return to game able to attack that turn or does it have summoning sickness again? If i take control of a creature does it gain summoning sickness again or can i attack right away?

9. I have 5 life, opponent hits me with a creature that is 6/6 that i have a spirit link on. Do i die?

10. Cytopoplast manipulator takes creature and remains in play but creature loses its plus one counters. Do i still get to keep it

Sorry to flood you guys with so many, ive been out of game for a while. You get what you give, especially with me. Trolls beware i will return equal rates i see you trolling other people with. If you fix the troll rate you gave, list persons name on my deck and i will fix yours as well.

1/28/2009 8:23:00 PM

DonQuixote

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1) Platinum angel. Platinum angel's effect is in essence a replacement effect. So Phage makes you lose the game, but before you can, Platinum Angel prevents it.

3) Tapping doesnt use the stack. You cant respond to it, you cant prevent it. In either case the effect exists independent of the creature and will resolve on it's own.

4) Yes - the enchantment would no longer have a legal target and fizzle

5) If the life is part of the cost (i.e. Thoughtseize) you pay the cost (lose life) then the spell is countered.. you still lose it.

6) They can tap in response to your effect going onto the stack, but they have to use in the current phase or take burn.

7) Poison counters stack as do essence.

8) Did you have it at the beginning of your turn? Does it have haste? Two no's and its sick.

9) You die, the damage is dealt to you, state based effects are checked you die.

Fortune favors the prepared mind

1/28/2009 10:55:00 PM

Grimmer

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>>>1. Phage vs Platinum angel... Does angel win and keep player alive?

Platinum Angel has a static ability that states you cannot lose the life. Phage triggers and when it resolves it tries to make you lose the game, but Platinum Angel prevents that from happening.

>>>2. Flickering ward... Can i play this on an opponents creature with 2 blue enchantments on it, name blue to destroy them and then buy it back?

You may play it on your opponent's creature and name blue to cause their blue enchantments to go to the graveyard. Then you can return it to your hand.

>>>3. How does stack order work with tapping. I have an untapped creature like visara, opponent is holding an unmake. If i tap then he unmakes does creature im targeting live?

Once activated, an ability will exist on the stack independent of the source. The creature you targeted will still be destroyed.

>>>or other way around he plays unmake first can i tap and kill creature.

This works as well. In response to the Unmake, you activate the Visara ability and destroy a creature.

>>>4. Similarly if i try to enchant a creature and my opponent instant kills it do i lose enchantment i was trying to play too?

Yes. As stated above, auras on the stack target the object they intend to enchant. If that target is illegal when it tries to resolve, the spell will be countered upon resolution due to having an illegal target.

>>>5. If i play a spell like minion of the wastes or hatred do i spend life first thus if countered i lose all the life?

The paying of life for Hatred is an additional cost, so you pay the life when you play the Hatred. If it gets countered, the life has already been paid. The paying of life for Minion of the Wastes happens as it enters play. If it is entering play, then it has resolved. If they were to counter Minion of the Wastes, then you would not lose any life.

>>>6. I use an ability that taps all opponents lands, do they get to interrupt and tap those lands to use them?

They may tap their lands for mana in response. If they don't use the mana before the end of the current phase then they will take mana burn.

>>>And whey you take damage from mana burn is it damage or loss of life, ie would having multiple sun droplets allow you to mana burn yourself and gain life in the end?

Mana burn is loss of life, not damage, so it won't trigger Sun Droplet.

>>>7. I know some slivers effects stack but do they all. Like essence sliver or the one that gives poison counters?

Every sliver grants the abilities on it to all other slivers. Two winged slivers grant a Metallic Sliver flying twice (though the second instance doesn't really do anything). Two Essence Slivers grant a Metallic Sliver Lifelink twice, so they'll gain 2 life for each damage it deals. Two Virulent Sliver grant a Metallic Sliver Poisonous 2, so it will give the opponent 2 poison counters if it deals them combat damage.

>>>8. if a creature is removed with o-ring does it return to game able to attack that turn or does it have summoning sickness again? If i take control of a creature does it gain summoning sickness again or can i attack right away?

A creature can't attack or use it's own activated abilities that include the tap symbol unless it has been under its owner's control since the beginning of their most recent turn. The O-Ring'd creature will not be able to attack unless you've controlled it continuously since the beginning of your most recent turn.

>>>9. I have 5 life, opponent hits me with a creature that is 6/6 that i have a spirit link on. Do i die?

Damage must resolve before the Lifelink triggers. Before the Lifelink resolves, state-based effects will cause you to lose the game.

>>>10. Cytopoplast manipulator takes creature and remains in play but creature loses its plus one counters. Do i still get to keep it

Yes.
01/05/2006 The control change lasts as long as Cytoplast Manipulator is in play. It doesn't end if the creature loses all its +1/+1 counters, it stops being a creature, or if Cytoplast Manipulator becomes untapped. I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/28/2009 11:00:00 PM

Dennis

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2) Flickering Ward errataed text now reads:
"Enchant creature
As Flickering Ward comes into play, choose a color.
Enchanted creature has protection from the chosen color. This effect doesn't remove Flickering Ward.
W: Return Flickering Ward to its owner's hand."
If the enchanted creature has Protection from Blue due to Flickering Ward, as in your scenario, any blue enchantment will fall off and go to the graveyard as a state based effect. So yes that will work.

5) If paying life is required as an additional cost to play the spell, then yes you will still lose the life if the spell is countered. For example, Acorn Harvest's Flashback cost reads "Flashback- 1G, Pay 3 life." You still lose that life as cost of playing the spell.

However, Thoughtseize reads as:
"Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life." which makes the losing of life part of the spell's effect. If this is countered, you will not lose the life.

6) Mana Burn is considered loss of life, not damage and therefore cannot be prevented (unless there's some card I don't know about that prevents loss of life).

10) Since you only control the creature with Cytoplast Manipulator if it has a +1/+1 counter, and that counter has been removed, then you will no longer be control of that creature. As a side note, it will have summoning sickness again unless it has Haste, and still be in the same state (i.e. tapped or untapped).

Edit: Damnit beaten to the punch ;)

1/28/2009 11:05:00 PM

Dennis

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Actually, I think instances of Poisonous are separate. So two instances of Poisonous 1 create two triggers upon dealt combat damage. I'm not sure when it would matter though.

1/28/2009 11:34:00 PM

Grimmer

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You are correct. It has two instances of Poisonous 1 which would be relevant if they were trying to Stifle triggers (They'd have to Stifle twice) I killed your cat! (Why?) I felt it would bring closure to our relationship!

1/29/2009 12:03:00 PM

The Planeswalker

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can a conjuerer's bauble return itself to the deck since u must sacrifice it as an activation cost? or is it not considered an activation cost
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